Marvel: Civil War

[Visitant]

I believe that the heroes taking charge of their own without having to register their identity is a perfectly valid approach to handling the situation. It can be argued "oh well why didn't they before Stamford" but that's like asking the Aztechs why they didn't have vending machines.

 

here's a hint: they didn't need them.

 

We live a society where we believe we need vending machines so, we have them. Something HAD to happen to make the heroes take notice and say, "hey times are a-changin, we should too". It's simple evolution of social behavior.

[archangel]

Ok, let's look at it this way (and keep in mind my personal politics so you can see my argument clearer, for Christ's Sake).

 

Let's preface this by stating the obvious: I am not one that likes overt Government regulation. I believe, by and large, the less the better.

 

However, I DO believe there should be some regulations in place for certain things, and in a world where people have super-powers, I think it's necessary.

 

Now, let's look at what was proposed:

 

The government said "if you want to continue fighting crime, you have to be registered.". In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that. If I wanted, tomorrow, to fight crime, I'd have to do what everybody else who wants to fight crime does: I'd join the police or the military.

 

Now, on that basic premise, there is nothing wrong with the idea of Registration. I'd even say there's nothing wrong with apprehending those who then refuse to follow the law. Really, at that point, you have but two choices: either arrest them (or try to) or turn a blind eye (which has been going on for years, ie, spider-man).

 

now, this whole mind controlling/body controlling villains into doing this against their will, and holding American Citizens in a detention center without due process: that's bullshit. The story was effectively written with a certain political bias, which again, it's to be expected: writers are writers.

 

But assuming real world rules applied to Marvel? That shit wouldn't have happened that way. All of those people would have been registered from the beginning and they would have been either a. made to work for the government (military or police) or b. regulated their powers for obvious safety reasons.

[Jables]

hurrrr cap's somehow shitting on civil servants for not agreeing with meeeee

 

...wait, you're (poorly) discussion 2 points now. you can't say cap's a hypocrite but the execution was shit...if this was only about standardized/federal training and not about surrendering identities to the feds at gunpoint, no, i dont think Cap would've gone against it.

 

if you wanna debate registration, nail down exactly what you think it oughta entail. no, not many would argue with standardization/some form of accountability...but giving up your civie ID? you do realize the cops & feds cant even protect human witnesses pre-trail sometimes, yeah?

 

My god it's fun being faecitious. It's so much fun I'm replacing my pepsi, my hair, and my logical arguement points with it!

 

Imagine you have powers. You live in a culture where powers are part of the status quo but somehow unregulated. How these personalities(heroic ones anyway) are percieved though runs the gammut from unilatterally embraced figures like Steve Rogers to hot & cold public personas like Spiderman. For the purposes of discussion let's not even look at the Mutant issue because that's a whole thing again(ask me sometime why I think Xavier is totally in cahoots with Magneto philosophically).

 

There's gotta be enough cautionary tales in the Marvel U for anyone to know that they're risking their family's lives by strapping on to begin with, so it's too late to start whining now about endangerment to loved ones when the people you're protecting want to legitimise the operation. Registration of anything, being car, gun, abilities, whatever to me means full disclosure. Not sure about you guys in the US, but here a person's psych history comes into getting a gun liscense and purchase of a firearm. I don't feel like there's a large distinction here, once you acknowledge that these guys have already put their families at risk by fighting crime. How the fuck would any kind of training/ processing work if these people don't have to give up their identities? By your rationale, Cletus Cassady could register under an assumed ID and altered abilities and how well do you figure this would end? These are the same laws we have in place now that (to some degree) prevent sex offenders from working in public schools(they just ship 'em off to catholic ones HAW!).

 

There's nothing in my mind wrong with the pitch for Registration. Cap, you and most anti-registration sentiment stems from some percieved theft of civil liberties that they only had in the first place because they annexed the shit and noone's said anything til now. As Joel said: Writers are writers and i believe it's easier/ more entertaining to exaggerate everything so here's how it played out: Cap jumps off a Helicarrier & hijacks a fighter jet, all the while assembling a rag tag team of Rebel scum, Iron Man responds in kind by making Thor Clones and nano-chains for the worst kind of supervillians. In the real world/ a book that wasn't hyped as the must-read summer event, Cap would allow himself to be detained and debate the issue with Iron Man, because the man is all about due process. They probably wouldn't come to a compromise, but you're trying to dismiss the arguement out of hand while defending Cap's response by citing the pro-crew's equally absurd actions.

 

On the matter of detaining heroes without due process, you have(i think) county jails which are temporary holding cells for offenders til they see trial or make bail, right? We call them watchhouses but that's the basic role they serve and the same goes for the #42 or whatever the Neg-zone prison was called. Again, this is an entertaining lack-of-time-lapse response to on-the-fly legislation. If this weren't a summer event they'd have probably gone into the proceedings and detention process(one of the tie-ins did, surely?), but frankly it doesn't get more black and white than, wearing a mask & expressing power without authority= detention. Cause and motherfucking effect.

[Jables]

Registration could've been a decent idea. If it had been thought about and implemented well. But it wasn't. Instead of protecting, it destroyed. It seems to me there's more than one question about registration. The two that come immediately to mind are: Are we obligated to obey immoral laws that take away rights like this one did, and what would have made this work?

 

Execution dude. How long would it take a bill like this to pass in RL?

 

Ok, let's look at it this way (and keep in mind my personal politics so you can see my argument clearer, for Christ's Sake).

 

Let's preface this by stating the obvious: I am not one that likes overt Government regulation. I believe, by and large, the less the better.

 

However, I DO believe there should be some regulations in place for certain things, and in a world where people have super-powers, I think it's necessary.

 

Now, let's look at what was proposed:

 

The government said "if you want to continue fighting crime, you have to be registered.". In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that. If I wanted, tomorrow, to fight crime, I'd have to do what everybody else who wants to fight crime does: I'd join the police or the military.

 

Now, on that basic premise, there is nothing wrong with the idea of Registration. I'd even say there's nothing wrong with apprehending those who then refuse to follow the law. Really, at that point, you have but two choices: either arrest them (or try to) or turn a blind eye (which has been going on for years, ie, spider-man).

 

now, this whole mind controlling/body controlling villains into doing this against their will, and holding American Citizens in a detention center without due process: that's bullshit. The story was effectively written with a certain political bias, which again, it's to be expected: writers are writers.

 

But assuming real world rules applied to Marvel? That shit wouldn't have happened that way. All of those people would have been registered from the beginning and they would have been either a. made to work for the government (military or police) or b. regulated their powers for obvious safety reasons.

 

I think in some ironic twist you've made the same point as me, but shorter. I like to think the added body to my post is squared away by personal attacks on NZA.

[The NZA]

My god it's fun being faecitious. It's so much fun I'm replacing my pepsi, my hair, and my logical arguement points with it!

 

if you see something factitious in there, spell the word right & then point it out. if not? back to the kids' table you go.

 

Imagine you have powers. You live in a culture where powers are part of the status quo but somehow unregulated. How these personalities(heroic ones anyway) are percieved though runs the gammut from unilatterally embraced figures like Steve Rogers to hot & cold public personas like Spiderman. For the purposes of discussion let's not even look at the Mutant issue because that's a whole thing again(ask me sometime why I think Xavier is totally in cahoots with Magneto philosophically).

 

bolded the early part where you argument falls apart: its the angle that shows how this kind've thing has failed (and why) previous in the marvel U. registering people like weapons means the gov't knows where to go when etc etc. mutants were registered before even deciding their path, much less committing a crime.

 

really, are you gonna address the central point anytime now? i already agreed training/standards were fine, you've not made a point on why surrendering identity is legit.

 

There's gotta be enough cautionary tales in the Marvel U for anyone to know that they're risking their family's lives by strapping on to begin with, so it's too late to start whining now about endangerment to loved ones when the people you're protecting want to legitimise the operation.

 

Spider-Man: back in black (also? DD: Born Again) both mock this conclusion. hard. again: cops cant protect witnesses, and that's a very real problem with criminal justice to this day: if you want this asinine argument to carry over/hold water, you gonna address who's gonna hold the lockbox on dual identities? because democracy means, yes, that can be Osborn sometimes.

fucka "cautionary tale", that's exactly why spider-man spent years and years trying to minimize the circle of who knew his name: it was out for a week, and aunt may caught a bullet, and no one could do shit. you're saying "you're already in danger, might as well give bullseye your house key."

 

Registration of anything, being car, gun, abilities, whatever to me means full disclosure. Not sure about you guys in the US, but here a person's psych history comes into getting a gun liscense and purchase of a firearm. I don't feel like there's a large distinction here, once you acknowledge that these guys have already put their families at risk by fighting crime. How the fuck would any kind of training/ processing work if these people don't have to give up their identities? By your rationale, Cletus Cassady could register under an assumed ID and altered abilities and how well do you figure this would end? These are the same laws we have in place now that (to some degree) prevent sex offenders from working in public schools(they just ship 'em off to catholic ones HAW!).

 

Cassidy was a felon before he got the suit: try again, man. and guess what? we dont have everyone's fingerprints on file right now, just the ones who've comitted crimes (or paid civil servants OH NO). which brings another fine point: i (again) agree with signing up (but not full disclosure as that's pointless and stupidly dangerous; god knows if you commit a crime, you get all the disclosure your lawyer allows then anyway), but what if i have mutant/etc powers and don't want to be a vigilante? do i have to be registered then, if i just wanna say run a legit detective agency or be a salesperson? just how much of your personal rights are ok to give up in the name of security when the individual's not doing a thing out of line?

 

There's nothing in my mind wrong with the pitch for Registration. Cap, you and most anti-registration sentiment stems from some percieved theft of civil liberties that they only had in the first place because they annexed the shit and noone's said anything til now.

 

rights are inherent. gov't can't give them, they can only take them away, and gleefully for people like you, apparently. feel free to keep skirting that issue till you feel like being serious, though.

 

As Joel said: Writers are writers and i believe it's easier/ more entertaining to exaggerate everything so here's how it played out: Cap jumps off a Helicarrier & hijacks a fighter jet, all the while assembling a rag tag team of Rebel scum, Iron Man responds in kind by making Thor Clones and nano-chains for the worst kind of supervillians. In the real world/ a book that wasn't hyped as the must-read summer event, Cap would allow himself to be detained and debate the issue with Iron Man, because the man is all about due process. They probably wouldn't come to a compromise, but you're trying to dismiss the arguement out of hand while defending Cap's response by citing the pro-crew's equally absurd actions.

 

that last part about cap letting himself be detained = talking out your ass. again, wizard did an excellent piece a while back on how much history (silver age up to present) where tony plays ball, but everyone assumes cap is the gov'ts boy when he has, on numerous occasions, shown he's for the people/liberties and not just whoever calls the shots and what they want right now.

100% agreed cap would run with standards/training. surrendering ID and needlessly endangering heroes who've not stepped out of line? no, that's the politics of fear, and cap hasn't abided that in anything ive read.

 

On the matter of detaining heroes without due process, you have(i think) county jails which are temporary holding cells for offenders til they see trial or make bail, right? We call them watchhouses but that's the basic role they serve and the same goes for the #42 or whatever the Neg-zone prison was called. Again, this is an entertaining lack-of-time-lapse response to on-the-fly legislation. If this weren't a summer event they'd have probably gone into the proceedings and detention process(one of the tie-ins did, surely?), but frankly it doesn't get more black and white than, wearing a mask & expressing power without authority= detention. Cause and motherfucking effect.

 

a) it's in the fucking negative zone. they showed that besides depowering some people who became unhealthy/unstable (not even reed seems to have that dimension's effects down), it only excasberated the situation.

b) holding cells are about keeping you until bail is posted from a court. do you know what happens if you cant process people according to a new law? you do not establish that law until you can, because you're violating constitutional amendments. important ones.

 

i know you're mostly taking the piss, but if you're really trying to be serious here, a quick hint? arch barely gets away with condescension, and he's a lot more well read on this stuff.

[Jables]

words

[The NZA]

...what happened here? did you mean to reply but gave up, or wha?

god help you if that was supposed to be clever

[Jables]

Finalised my reply, turned away for a minute and BAM. Words were gone. Will re-do the magic later but for the moment let it be boiled down to the key points

 

* snark is a wonderful replacement for valid arguing

 

* You clearly misunderstand a whole lot

 

* I made a remark about this being one of the few outlets you have for what's probably quite a useless degree

 

* and you spend waaay too much time critiquing my lack of debating technique to make anything resembling a response.

 

I'll remake all the points I had already later when I can be arsed, I'm out to watch more Office.

[The NZA]

oh, do take your time. i await with bated breath.

 

ps if we're both arguing that standards are cool but revealing your identity to the same feds that can't keep wikileaks from doing their thing, cool.

i just want you to bear in mind: cops & firefighters don't have dual identities, because id argue even the worst cop in the nastiest area has about as much danger of reprisal at home as some prosecutes & judges

(unless vick mackie sells you out hard and you go to jail, where they rape you to death)

. before we continue this odd marvel U/real life comparison, pretend you're in a mash-up of 1985 or whatever your favorite Millar story was, and that super villains crossed over: we don't even have to look at wanted, this is the same universe where spidey was out for a few minutes and his elderly aunt got sniped, or DD was out and bullseye showed up that week to rape/kill his blind wife. i just want you to realize selling out has consequences beyond my principles on liberty (those being: if norse gods save you from existential doom every tuesday, mayhaps they should get a bit of leeway when they ask you to not fuck with their medical practice).

[archangel]

We Have CIA Agents, FBI Agents, DEA Agents, ICE Agents and friggin IRS agents (not to mention regular police officers) who function under cover in highly dangerous and very covert operations ALL THE TIME. Their cover is known to a handful of people.

 

Now, in the Marvel U there already exists an entity which can easily incorporate this: SHIELD/SWORD.

 

Also, Cap and Tony share one thing, one very important thing in common: EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. So the identity stint isn't as big an issue until you start talking about shadier people, which the feds already know who THEY are, too. Who, in the end, was the biggest story when they de-masked? Spidey.

 

In the Marvel U, people KNOW who these people are for the most part, and many of them are already in Government Service.

[Lycaon]

i just want you to bear in mind: cops & firefighters don't have dual identities, because id argue even the worst cop in the nastiest area has about as much danger of reprisal at home as some prosecutes & judges

But, how much damage do you think the everyday cop does to a criminal organization compared to what the average superhero does?

 

We Have CIA Agents, FBI Agents, DEA Agents, ICE Agents and friggin IRS agents (not to mention regular police officers) who function under cover in highly dangerous and very covert operations ALL THE TIME. Their cover is known to a handful of people.

And sometimes they get outed for political reasons.

[Iambaytor]

How can we still be arguing the pros of registration when we saw the whole thing coming falling down around us with our own eyes? Thanks to Stark, Norman Osbourne became the head of the government and then got hold of registration lists, which fortunately had been erased just in the nick of time by Tony before he pissed off and erased his mind. It DID fail, catastrophically so and if it hadn't been for Loki and his Deus Ex rocks then we'd still be dealing with Junkie Emo Superman and the most annoying star spangled thing since Richard Simmons.

 

Registration ruined Christmas for everyone, boo to it.

[The NZA]

We Have CIA Agents, FBI Agents, DEA Agents, ICE Agents and friggin IRS agents (not to mention regular police officers) who function under cover in highly dangerous and very covert operations ALL THE TIME. Their cover is known to a handful of people.

 

once again, which of these groups has Bullseye after them/their families? Sabretooth? should i go on?

 

Now, in the Marvel U there already exists an entity which can easily incorporate this: SHIELD/SWORD.

 

You been reading Secret Warriors? You should, man, great book. anyway, S.H.I.E.L.D. has been compromised to Hydra since day 1, S.W.O.R.D....i cant recall the last time i saw them honestly.

 

Also, Cap and Tony share one thing, one very important thing in common: EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. So the identity stint isn't as big an issue until you start talking about shadier people, which the feds already know who THEY are, too. Who, in the end, was the biggest story when they de-masked? Spidey.

 

In the Marvel U, people KNOW who these people are for the most part, and many of them are already in Government Service.

 

believe it or not, cap's ID was secret until about the relaunch of his book, @ 9-11. yeah, i don't know why either; makes as much sense as having a dual identity secret.

still...can you name many other public heroes? few of the cornier avengers, few of the cool ones like luke cage, but more of marvel is secret than not.

 

But, how much damage do you think the everyday cop does to a criminal organization compared to what the average superhero does?

 

you're arguing my case here, but yeah, street level guys like DD (sometimes spidey) make a much bigger dent, hence why the Kingpin took a hit on parker as fast as he did.

[archangel]

once again, which of these groups has Bullseye after them/their families? Sabretooth? should i go on?

No, but they have hired hitmen and the Mob. Compare like things.

 

anyway, S.H.I.E.L.D. has been compromised to Hydra since day 1, S.W.O.R.D....i cant recall the last time i saw them honestly.

...which, in many cases, has discovered identities to the major players anyway.

 

they might have been compromised, but the situation still worked.

 

can you name many other public heroes?

all of the X-Men

The Fantastic Four

 

hence why the Kingpin took a hit on parker as fast as he did.

and we saw how that worked out.

 

fact is, it's a workable system with checks and balances. Even if you have just a few heroes like, say, Cap and Tony, who are regulating the thing (like the Justice League), it works out. But you still have a method of answering to laws.

[The NZA]

No, but they have hired hitmen and the Mob. Compare like things.

 

not like: supervillains =/= mob enforcers. the former group not only cant be stopped by local PD (again, bullseye, sabretooth, etc), they have augmented powers...let me ask you this: a mob hitman vs say The Hood who can hide anywhere - same thing?

 

 

...which, in many cases, has discovered identities to the major players anyway.

they might have been compromised, but the situation still worked.

 

...when has this ever happened

 

all of the X-Men

The Fantastic Four

 

1) not all of the x-men

2) i like that we're using 2 groups, 1 believed dead by the gov't for many years, and heavily oppressed by them when nearing extinction (registration failed them for a long time, sentinels in their yard only managed to pass this effort in stupidity), and 1 which contains cosmic powers. this is not a "one size fits all" scenario, or you'd see more teams with FF's PR and paycheck. hell, spider-man laments this constantly.

 

and we saw how that worked out.

 

yes, kingpin's very first effort killed his dear aunt, until the devil made a deal to keep her in continuity for longer. i did indeed.

 

fact is, it's a workable system with checks and balances. Even if you have just a few heroes like, say, Cap and Tony, who are regulating the thing (like the Justice League), it works out. But you still have a method of answering to laws.

 

not dumb ones - and comparing the avengers to the JLA is wrong for many reasons, easiest being their crossover highlighting the simple truth: DC universe loves its heroes.

there's no reasonable way to compromise the safety/identity of all the heroes (certainly not in a world so prevalent of psychics, etc), but again, moreover, there's no reason. the training standards i wholly agree with, needless endangering by giving your name/ID to a system that gets witnesses killed in front of police stations when you haven't broken any laws yet, i do not.

[Jables]

We're agreed on the training part, but I still come back to the honest question: How do you prevent psychopaths from registering and fucking shit up from the inside? Surrendering ID's a valid system to me but we're clearly coming from different perspectives and aren't going to agree on this key thing. Without Irony I still state that going out and 'fighting the good fight' carries a level of personal culpability that should be factored into such an important decision.

 

I'm unsure if this point was lost in the unsaved post or I'm repeating myself(apologies if so), but you yourself NZA, in your chosen carer path have to have at some point considered the chance of Kerstin getting the 3am visit that noone wants, because you've died putting out a fire or in a Michael Hutchence-style accident down @ the firehouse. Me? I'm too invested in my relationship to risk my life or make the world a better place. Point is, the implied risk is just brought more to the fore in the decision-making process. I suppose a possible compromise would be deletion of files of inactive agents?

[The NZA]

We're agreed on the training part, but I still come back to the honest question: How do you prevent psychopaths from registering and fucking shit up from the inside?

 

Tony & Reed say: TOSS EM IN THE NEGATIVE ZONES WHEN THEY DOES

for real, though: how do you prevent this even if they do give up their ID? aren't some of these guys known for being hard to find/going invisible/dipping off to metaphysical planes or something?

you know, the more i think on it, the more Powers really tried to examine this (vol 2 & on) more than Civil War did.

 

Without Irony I still state that going out and 'fighting the good fight' carries a level of personal culpability that should be factored into such an important decision.

 

well, this again brings me to the other part of the formula, dealt with more in the mutie books: what if i end up with superpowers (genetic, of freak accident) and i dont want to fight the good fight, do i still have to register/train/etc?

 

I'm unsure if this point was lost in the unsaved post or I'm repeating myself(apologies if so), but you yourself NZA, in your chosen carer path have to have at some point considered the chance of Kerstin getting the 3am visit that noone wants, because you've died putting out a fire or in a Michael Hutchence-style accident down @ the firehouse. Me? I'm too invested in my relationship to risk my life or make the world a better place. Point is, the implied risk is just brought more to the fore in the decision-making process. I suppose a possible compromise would be deletion of files of inactive agents?

 

i'm leaning towards being too important for the risk myself, but that's for another time

see, im reading this as "you're putting yourself at risk, why not do so a bit more?" i still think the crux of my gripe here is making your family/friends/neighborhood at risk. spidey and guys like him have proven they can pretty much handle most anything thrown at them, but they're often not home, and S.H.I.E.L.D. isnt gonna staff the loved ones/neighborhood/etc of every cape - DC kinda resolves this by having some BS JLA security system in their houses, but a) theyve got more gods that can port over there when activated, presumably? and b) batman's fool-proof shit got undone by a crazy ex-wife or something so this still isn't a fantastic idea.

 

again, though: who'd hold the list of names? we only averted more tragedy last time cause stark wiped his files on the way out the door, and then took magic retard juice to forget the rest.

[Lycaon]

The only examples we've given in real life thus far of secret identities are frequently found out and (once again) in one example actually leaked to the press for political reasons. Trusting the government with your secret identity seems suicidal to me.

[Jables]

Tony & Reed say: TOSS EM IN THE NEGATIVE ZONES WHEN THEY DOES

for real, though: how do you prevent this even if they do give up their ID? aren't some of these guys known for being hard to find/going invisible/dipping off to metaphysical planes or something?

you know, the more i think on it, the more Powers really tried to examine this (vol 2 & on) more than Civil War did.

 

 

 

well, this again brings me to the other part of the formula, dealt with more in the mutie books: what if i end up with superpowers (genetic, of freak accident) and i dont want to fight the good fight, do i still have to register/train/etc?

 

Man, I still gotta object to citing mutant registration in this discussion, one is registration for completely racist purposes and the other's more beaurocratically motivated. To respond though: Until you become a threat and/or enter the public eye in a mask, you shouldn't exist as far as the rego crowd are concerned. I mean, I don't even recall anyone pro-rego mentioning a Cerebro-type device to round up metas(I'm so starting my Xavier's a cunt thread after this).

 

i'm leaning towards being too important for the risk myself, but that's for another time

see, im reading this as "you're putting yourself at risk, why not do so a bit more?" i still think the crux of my gripe here is making your family/friends/neighborhood at risk. spidey and guys like him have proven they can pretty much handle most anything thrown at them, but they're often not home, and S.H.I.E.L.D. isnt gonna staff the loved ones/neighborhood/etc of every cape - DC kinda resolves this by having some BS JLA security system in their houses, but a) theyve got more gods that can port over there when activated, presumably? and b) batman's fool-proof shit got undone by a crazy ex-wife or something so this still isn't a fantastic idea.

 

again, though: who'd hold the list of names? we only averted more tragedy last time cause stark wiped his files on the way out the door, and then took magic retard juice to forget the rest.

 

Not a perfect analogue but, here in Oz(not sure about there) serving military personelle's family gets billeted accomodation on the gov't dime. They don't necessarily live on-base or anything but say I joined the RAAF and were stationed in another state, Bazza the stepdad(or w/e our version of Uncle sam is) foots the bill for Alana & the dogs' accomodation generally in apartment blocks purchased and designed solely for this purpose(alana grew up as an army brat so she might explain better), so in keeping with my personal opinion that heroes willing to risk their shit are still to a degree compromising their loved ones, this would be an acceptable middle ground. I'll go you one better and say, reduced collateral damage from untrained heroes would even cover a chunk of this to avoid increased taxes/ other revenue builders. There's still be a hike, no doubt but legitimacy and a greater promise of safety is a small price(especially considering what I hear you guys paid to occupy Iraq).

 

In terms of the list-keeper: who looks after state secrets in our current world? I resent yours and Baytor's constant assertions of Dark Reign fucking it all to hell because, a career criminal like Norman Osbourn would never be given the keys to the Delorean in any realistic situation. A checkered past like his, no matter how much money or strategically-placed bullets into queen Skrulls' heads would not earn him that right. DR was a retarded little fantasy that helped Marvel clean house.

[The NZA]

Man, I still gotta object to citing mutant registration in this discussion, one is registration for completely racist purposes and the other's more beaurocratically motivated. To respond though: Until you become a threat and/or enter the public eye in a mask, you shouldn't exist as far as the rego crowd are concerned. I mean, I don't even recall anyone pro-rego mentioning a Cerebro-type device to round up metas(I'm so starting my Xavier's a cunt thread after this).

 

you're like, at least 3 years late on that thread...but im down

ok, so to be clear: if it somehow becomes known (cerebro-like or otherwise) that i'm an omega-level teen that hasn't fucked anything up just yet - but could take out a city if i desired - the feds aren't coming to my door? because i cant see this reg act of yours not coming to this.

 

 

 

Not a perfect analogue but, here in Oz(not sure about there) serving military personelle's family gets billeted accomodation on the gov't dime. They don't necessarily live on-base or anything but say I joined the RAAF and were stationed in another state, Bazza the stepdad(or w/e our version of Uncle sam is) foots the bill for Alana & the dogs' accomodation generally in apartment blocks purchased and designed solely for this purpose(alana grew up as an army brat so she might explain better), so in keeping with my personal opinion that heroes willing to risk their shit are still to a degree compromising their loved ones, this would be an acceptable middle ground. I'll go you one better and say, reduced collateral damage from untrained heroes would even cover a chunk of this to avoid increased taxes/ other revenue builders. There's still be a hike, no doubt but legitimacy and a greater promise of safety is a small price(especially considering what I hear you guys paid to occupy Iraq).

 

its a nice idea...but the minute you cross over civil service with military, you're going down exactly the road Cap said this would, and as i recall, one of the biggest reasons he rebelled. superpowers shouldnt serve at a state's leisure in times of war, the implications are kinda disastrous. again, im trying to see the compromise, but what this reads like is "you're kind of putting your family/neighbors at risk if you do this and someone finds out, so unmask and be ready to go to iraq".

 

In terms of the list-keeper: who looks after state secrets in our current world? I resent yours and Baytor's constant assertions of Dark Reign fucking it all to hell because, a career criminal like Norman Osbourn would never be given the keys to the Delorean in any realistic situation. A checkered past like his, no matter how much money or strategically-placed bullets into queen Skrulls' heads would not earn him that right. DR was a retarded little fantasy that helped Marvel clean house.

 

really sorry here, as i know we're talking respective cultural perspective and all, but...as an american who recently lived with cheney one heartbeat away from the presidency, and greatly influencing war efforts & military contracts, despite having ties to them? yeah, im not prepared to say who will or won't have the keys here one bit. Ly's point about agents being outed for political reasons also likewise stands...i mean, we're doing this odd merge of marvel u and reality (where its convenient, heh) and even in marvel, i adore Fury and prolly trust him more than most anyone else to scorch the earth if it means doing the right thing, but even he doesn't strike me as ideal for this info, and he's entirely fictional.

[Little Nemo McFly]

I JUST finished reading the entirety of Civil War. All the tie-in and crossover issues...ALL 106 issues.

 

I played the crap out of Ultimate Alliance 2...and the first one for that matter. Got all the achievements. I knew it was a loose adaptation, but I thought I got the gist of the story. With the movie coming out, I thought I'd read the source material. When I was reading the comics, I recognized some scenes...I was like, "Oh! I saw this in cg - cool!" But the ending and where the whole thing went was vastly different.

 

Not gonna lie, it was kinda anti-climatic. The matter didn't really feel resolved at the end. AWESOME moments, though! POWERFUL stuff going on. When I finally got to the end - it just didn't feel like the whole issue was over.

[Da Cap'n 2099]

I always felt that the REAL final issue of Civil War was Captain America #25.

[The NZA]

geez, all the tie-ins, plus Ultimate Alliance 2? i think what pisses me off most about that game was missing the Carnage timed DLC too

 

I always felt that the REAL final issue of Civil War was Captain America #25.

 

strongly agreed; the prelude stuff in Amazing Spider-Man was also the peak of the event

[Little Nemo McFly]

I was ALL OVER that Carnage DLC. Totally missed out on the Juggernaut DLC. That still hurts.

 

Yeah, man - 106 issues and I ate it all up.

 

The Spidey and Speedball stuff was by far the most interesting stuff. I loved it. Loved it.

 

 

I guess the reader was supposed to keep reading Marvel to see if and how Cap returns and if there would ever be a resolve to superheroes being unregistered? It just kinda ended with Tony "winniiing!"

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by Little Nemo McFly

[Da Cap'n 2099]

I think the ACTUAL reason it went down that way was because Brubaker had dibs on any... "changes"... in Cap. I think they had this planned all along, but deferred to the creators and Bru took "the shot."